Jim Hirschauer: Hello and
welcome to ShipTalk.
I'm Jim Hirschauer, your host
for today.
ShipTalk, it's a DevOps podcast
brought to you by Harness, the
software delivery platform.
My guest today is Scott Lee,
Head of IT Infrastructure and
Operations at Arch Mortgage
Insurance Company.
Scott, welcome to the show.
Scott Lee: Thanks, Jim.
Glad to be here.
Jim Hirschauer: So Scott, we go
back a long ways.
We used to work together, so I
know a little bit about your
background, but why don't you go
ahead and fill in our listeners
on your background in just like
one to two minutes.
Scott Lee: Yeah, sure.
Absolutely.
You know you mentioned, we go
back a little ways.
We both worked at Wells Fargo
Wachovia together.
Yeah.
Back in the day.
That was a lot of fun.
We had a great time there.
Yeah.
I've got a little over 30 years
experience in the IT industry
and around half of that has been
in some sort of a leadership
role.
So I've been doing this for a
long time.
I've worked on some great
projects like the Intel video
phone way back in the day that
brings us the technology we're
using today to do video and
voice over the internet on the
H323 stack.
Nice.
All the way up through financial
services where I'm at today and,
and have been for about the last
15 years.
Jim Hirschauer: Outstanding.
All right, so, Scott, I know
you're familiar with how this
show works.
We have two just for fun
segments.
We do one at the beginning, we
do one at the end, and then we
sandwich in the middle our main
topic.
So we're gonna get started with
that first, just for fun
segment.
I remember you mentioning that
you like to geek out a bit when
it comes to home automation, so
why don't you fill us in on
that?
Scott Lee: I've been doing some
sort of home automation for a
few years now, and I've done
some fun things and I've learned
a lot, and it's sort of a way to
keep my, my fingers on the
keyboard, if you will, after
having gone to management.
So, yeah, it's been a lot of
fun.
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah what type
of software do you use?
Scott Lee: So I, I use quite a
few different things.
I've tried different hubs and
different hub software for
several years.
One of them is SmartThings.
Mm-hmm.
I, I've used some smart things
in the past Hubitat.
Right now I'm trying out the
Amazon fourth gen.
With ZigBee and Matter.
So working to move all of my
stuff away from Z-Wave and
ZigBee into matter, cuz it seems
like that's gonna be the more
universal protocol.
So yeah, working on that and
some home assistant on Raspberry
Pi and that sort of thing.
Jim Hirschauer: Nice.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Hubitat,
personally, that's what I use at
my house and I have Hubitat
integrated with home kit via
home bridge on a raspberry pie.
And actually I did a little
upgrade yesterday that was
recommended by Apple.
I noticed they were like, Hey,
there's this new version that
you can upgrade to.
So I upgraded it and then it
broke part of my home automation
system because they didn't tell
me that, oh, they're deprecating
iPad as a hub.
So I had an iPad running part of
my system, communicating with
some devices.
So that stopped working
completely.
So they're forcing people to go
to the HomePod mini, or the
bigger home pod as a hub that
can control certain devices.
So I thought that was
interesting.
And that switch is actually
because of matter.
That was one of the underlying
changes.
So, you know how it goes with
these things sometimes progress
sets you back a little bit.
Scott Lee: Yeah, it's true.
Every time you upgrade you kind
of have that fear of, okay,
what's gonna break when I do
this?
Right?
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah, exactly.
Well, why don't you gimme some
interesting examples.
There's so many things you can
do with home automation.
How about you gimme some
examples of what you've done?
Yeah,
Scott Lee: sure.
So one of the neat things I have
right now is I also use Ring,
which is very compatible with
the Amazon stuff, as you know.
I've got nine cameras around my
property and it's not because
I'm paranoid or anything like
that, but I've got about an acre
and a half worth of property and
I wanna know when something's
coming and going.
So all those cameras have motion
sensors set up and when one of
those motion sensors triggers,
not only does it trigger the
recording, but it also lets my
phone know it blinks a few
lights in the house, and gives
me some audible messages in the
house that someone's either
coming down the driveway or
there's a package on the front
door.
You know, those are some pretty
basic ones that come somewhat
native in ring.
But I've expanded those a little
bit to turn some certain lights
on and things like that.
So when someone walks up to my
front door and it's dark outside
the front, porch lights are
already on, but they're only set
to 20%.
And when someone walks up, I'll
go ahead and increase those to a
hundred percent just so they
have good lighting when they
come up.
So that's nice, easy things like
that.
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah, good
stuff.
I actually set up something new
the other day.
I have an electric car and
occasionally, either myself or
my wife will, when we bring the
car home and it's pretty low on
electricity, we might forget to
plug it in because we're doing
something.
So the other day I went ahead
and set up an automation where
if it is below 30% when I come
home, I have these light
switches that have LEDs in them
so that you can get
notifications right through the
light switch that's in the wall.
And so it actually like pulses
a, a purple light if the car is
too low.
It's handy.
I'll see it.
I'm like, oh, okay.
I need to go plug the car in.
So I love home automation.
I love making life easier, even
though there's a bit of work to
get it going, you just can't
beat it for making life better.
Scott Lee: Yeah, I tell you it's
true.
One of my favorite automations
has nothing to do with making my
life better, except that I'm an
Organ Ducks fan.
And every time that the Oregon
Ducks football team scores a
touchdown, I use IFTTT to flash
my hue light screen in yellow.
Jim Hirschauer: Oh, nice.
That's a good one.
I like that.
I may have to look into that for
my favorite sporting teams.
Scott Lee: Yep, yep.
Jim Hirschauer: All right.
Cool.
So, listen we're gonna
transition right now.
We're gonna transition to our
main topic and I think you told
me actually that you're in an
MBA process right now.
Is that right?
Scott Lee: Actually, it's a
doctoral process.
Oh, I'm working on my
dissertation.
Jim Hirschauer: That's right.
Yeah.
It's a doctoral process.
Well, congrats.
What is that about?
What's that on?
Scott Lee: Yeah.
So my problem statement is
around some data that Microsoft
Research came out with not too
long ago, just a few months ago
that says 87% of remote or
hybrid employees feel that their
performance has improved since
moving to remote or hybrid.
Yeah.
But 85% of their managers
disagree saying that the
performance has degraded.
So I wanna understand that more.
I wanna understand why that's
the case, why those managers
feel that the performance has
been negatively impacted and the
employees feel that it's, it's
better and really understand
what employers can do if they're
moving to a remote strategy,
which I think in this economy
and in this work environment
that we're in today is sort of a
necessity, right?
Gallop says nine out of 10
people who have remote eligible
positions really want to work in
some sort of remote or hybrid
role.
Yeah.
80% of those expect that to be
the case and 64% say if that is
not the case, they're gonna look
for another job.
So those are statistics that are
just too big to ignore and we
need to really understand that.
Jim Hirschauer: I had no idea
there was such a huge divide
between perception of managers,
of remote workers and the actual
feeling that remote workers have
about themselves.
What does that come down to?
I know you're studying that
right now, but have you drawn
any initial conclusions on that?
Scott Lee: It's a little early
in the process for definitive
conclusions, but anecdotally, I
can say there are a few reasons
I think this is happening.
First, I think managers look for
traditional signs of
productivity.
So when you're in the office
with your team members, you're
gonna look at them throughout
the day as you walk by, you're
gonna have conversations with
them.
You're gonna see that they're at
their desk, they're doing
something.
It doesn't necessarily denote
productivity.
But it does mean that they're
there, they're working, they're,
they're doing supposedly what
they're supposed to do.
Those signs, those visual cues
are gone.
Yeah, and managers of remote
workers are, some of them are
using what I call managed by the
dot, right?
Where they're looking at either
Slack or teams or whatever to
see are they available, are they
away?
Are they in a meeting, right?
What are they doing right?
And that's not the right way to
do it.
We have to shift from a visual
cue of what performance looks
like over to a deliverable
queue.
What are they delivering for the
company?
I don't personally care when
they deliver it.
Yeah.
As long as it's on time and it's
what we need.
Right.
That should be the theory.
Jim Hirschauer: Right.
I think you said that you have
an article coming out with maybe
some tips on how to manage
remote employees or, or is it
how to be a remote worker?
Or is it both?
Scott Lee: It's more for the
leadership side.
It's coming out in CIO Review
magazine.
It's called Adapting to the New
Normal IT Leadership Strategies
for Managing a Hybrid Workforce.
I lay out several different tips
in there, one of which is, To
provide regular feedback.
If we can talk to our team
members and really understand
what they're going through, they
can understand what our
expectations are, have those
regular feedback conversations
throughout the month, not just
once or twice a year, that's
really gonna make a huge
difference.
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah, for sure.
So this is a really timely
conversation.
Since the pandemic, there's been
a massive shift towards either
fully remote work or at least
some sort of hybrid work.
Personally, I've worked
full-time remote for over a
decade at this point, so it's
interesting for me.
I've kind of built my own habits
and I've built teams globally as
well.
And they've been all fully
remote.
So I've built a lot of my own
habits throughout that time.
But I'd love to hear your
perspective.
What are those most important
habits that either as a, leader
of remote workers you should be
looking at, and obviously
communication was one of those
big things that you just
mentioned, but are there more,
and then potentially even as a
remote worker, what can you do
to help improve this perception?
Scott Lee: Yeah.
So there's a lot in that
question.
Certainly the habits are very
important and like you, I've
been remote myself for quite a
long time.
In fact, my shift is actually
going back to the office a
little bit in my role at Arch.
So it's been a little bit of an
adjustment for me to, to go into
the office a few days.
I've been fully remote for quite
some time now, long before the
pandemic and leading remote
teams.
And the biggest habit that I've
come to personally for being a
remote team member is to ensure
that I have my workspace set and
my family knows when I'm in my
workspace, I'm working, don't,
don't come in, and at least
check before to make sure that
I'm not on a video call or
something along those lines.
Right.
Because those distractions can
really disrupt the day.
Yeah.
From a manager perspective.
Understand that if team members
are working from home, that
means they are gonna have some
of those disruptions, and that's
okay.
They're still getting the job
done.
I was getting a mortgage not
long ago for my house and my
mortgage broker on the other
end, she was a new mom and her
baby was there, and sometimes I
would hear the baby Yeah.
As a customer.
That doesn't bother me.
I'm okay with that.
Right.
And so we kind of have to
understand that this is sort of
the new normal we're gonna be
playing by these rules for a
long time.
Jim Hirschauer: One of those
things that you mentioned about
interruptions has become an
important part of my habits from
working at home.
So one of the things that I do
with my family is they know if
my door is shut to my office,
that they're not to interrupt
me.
I'm probably in a meeting.
Or doing what I do right now.
We're on this podcast.
I've got my door shut so they
know, Hey, let's not let's not
interrupt.
And I have dogs also, so let's
try and keep those dogs quiet.
Right?
And, and it's another big part
of working at home.
You hear the dogs in the
background all the time on Zoom
calls.
Yeah, and so I've done that.
But one of the other really
great things that I've picked up
as a habit is I have this little
notepad, and my notepad list
three little categories.
The first category says super
important.
The second category says, then
do this, and the third category
says, chill, this can wait.
And I went searching for
something like this and every
single morning what I do is I
think through my day and I think
about what are the things that I
need to accomplish today?
And to me, this helps keep me on
track.
Right.
It's one of those indispensable
productivity hacks for me.
And then I actually keep track
of all of this work in some
online software.
There's lots of different online
software for tasks that you can
manage all your tasks with, and
I use that for reporting.
So, some of these items that I
write down, maybe a sub-task
within that bigger task, and I'm
using that, so that I can give
complete visibility to my
manager.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
You know, that's a good one.
I do prioritize my day in a
similar method.
I'll go through and I think to
myself, every time something's
coming in, what box does this
fall in?
Is it urgent and important?
Well, then that's a fire drill
and I try to avoid those things.
Is it important but not urgent?
Well, that's the box I wanna
play in because that's keeping
the fire drills out.
Yeah.
Right.
And then is it urgent but not
important.
That means it's somebody else's
fire drill.
Right.
And then is it not urgent or
important at all?
These are the things that are
setting the foundation for the
future.
Right?
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah, that
little four box prioritization
is a great tool to use for sure.
Yep.
So what else?
Is there anything else in the
article that you wanna mention,
just little teaser.
I wanna read the article
personally, but you don't need
to say everything that's in it.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
It's funny cuz one of the things
that we know with the statistics
I threw out earlier about how
many people are expecting to
work at home.
Most CHROs are saying that
technology positions are going
to be the most difficult to
recruit in the next 12 months.
And one of the reasons for that
is now those are very, very
remote positions.
Yeah.
A lot of people know that they
can do that from anywhere and
they have the technical skills
to do it successfully.
So with that, a lot of companies
are saying, Hey, we're gonna,
we're gonna move to a remote
policy and we're gonna start
letting people work at home.
The question I ask is, why?
What does it look like when
you're successful with this
policy?
If the policy isn't working, how
are you gonna know?
Yeah.
And a lot of companies aren't
taking that step to really
identify what success looks like
from the remote and hybrid
policies.
So that's one piece of advice
that is out there that I say is
golden.
If you can identify how you're
going to measure the results of
your policy, you're probably on
the right track.
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah, for sure.
As a manager of remote
employees, I look at output.
I know that we collectively,
this team, we need to drive
certain activities to completion
in order to align with achieving
company goals.
And so if the folks on my team,
if we're collectively delivering
on that, if the individuals in
the team are chipping in their
portion, I don't care when that
happens personally.
That's just me.
It doesn't matter if they work,
midnight to 8:00 AM or nine to
five or whatever.
That's almost irrelevant in my
mind.
What's much more important is
they're doing the work that
they're supposed to be getting
done and that it's a high
quality output.
And then besides that, I don't
necessarily believe that they
must every single day work eight
hours.
Maybe on a certain day they can
work six hours.
Maybe on another day they might
have to work 10 hours because
hey, sometimes that happens.
But yep, trying to maintain that
work-life balance.
I think becomes an important
thing, especially for
stay-at-home workers.
It's one of the traps we can get
sucked into.
I know I've done it personally
where I started working all the
time as a remote worker, and
that became very unhealthy for
me.
So I'm not sure if you've, are
you looking into that portion of
that, like that perspective at
all as well?
Scott Lee: Yeah, a little bit.
Wellbeing is certainly a
tremendous factor, and this is
one of the big things that
remote workers are looking to
achieve, that commute is a
killer for a lot of folks.
I know personally working in
Charlotte, I lived in Indian
Trail, North Carolina, and on a,
on a day with no traffic, we're
looking at 45 minutes to get
into the office.
Yeah.
There's no day in Charlotte that
there's no traffic.
So you're anywhere from an hour
and 25 minutes to two hours,
depending on what time of day
and what day you're at.
So that commute each way,
tremendous waste of time for a
lot of people.
And they're looking at that as,
Hey, I get that time back to
spend on my own projects, to
spend with my family, and it's
not dedicated to my job.
10 hours a week is a lot of
time.
Yeah.
So that's, that's what people
are looking for.
Jim Hirschauer: Well, and what
about the, the flip side of this
coin?
What about people who either,
either they don't like remote
work personally, right?
They just don't want to be that
isolated or folks that maybe
have a tough time
self-motivating and keeping
themselves on track.
What do we do if we have a work
environment that encourages
remote.
And we end up having some people
on the team with those
challenges.
Scott Lee: Yeah, it's
interesting because a lot of the
research that Gallup has done
has found that people who prefer
hybrid they prefer it because,
Of the interaction, the personal
interaction.
This is one reason I think
managers are looking at remote
workers as not being as
productive because they're not
contributing to some of the
water cooler conversations that
happen in the office.
Hmm.
And I think that's a reason that
we're seeing a lot of hybrid
positions come open as opposed
to full-time remote.
So it's an interesting dilemma.
How do you balance the will and
desire to stay at home with the
interaction for people?
And my answer to that is from an
employer's standpoint, give them
a reason to come in.
If you're gonna have town halls
or team events or some sort of
workshop or training, you know,
these are reasons people are
gonna come in, they're gonna
collaborate, that sort of thing.
So, I mean, it's gonna happen
every week?
Probably not, but at least once
a month, once a quarter, those
types of things tend to bring
people back into the office so
they can see each other, even if
it's not full-time.
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah, really
interesting.
I was having a similar
conversation with one of my
friends last week, and he
mentioned specifically that he
really loves a hybrid model.
He worked from home four days a
week, and then that one day a
week he would go to the office
and he would have conversations
where, quite honestly, sometimes
folks get really busy, you may
request something from them.
It may slip their mind or there
may be some reason why they
don't respond to you.
And he was like, I just wanna go
in and have these conversations
face to face.
I want to go and talk to people.
And he felt like that one day in
the office he was able to move
the needle, move things forward
a little bit.
And so I thought that was a
great use for him in his
particular circumstances.
Not everyone's gonna be in that
same situation, but for me.
It underscored the value of that
potential of offering that
hybrid type of work environment.
Scott Lee: Yeah, you're
absolutely right, and that's,
that brings up another thing
that Gallup research has found
is that hybrid teams are a lot
more successful in their
policies when they let the team
members determine what those
policies are.
Mm-hmm.
What days do you want to come
in?
How often should you come in?
These are things that the
employer can dictate all day
long, but it's not gonna bring
people back in.
But if they collectively come in
and say, Hey, you know what,
Tuesdays are a great day for
everybody to come in.
We can see each other and then,
you know, whatever after that.
But those Tuesdays are really
important.
Then you're gonna get buy-in
from those team members and
they're all gonna come in and
see each other.
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah.
Great point.
What else, Scott, is there
anything else we need to add to
this conversation?
What did we miss?
Scott Lee: The last big thing,
and this has come out since I've
written my article and it's been
in editorial review.
But Gallup has done a lot of
research here and they've got a
lot of great data.
One of the really interesting
things that I picked up from a
conference last week at at
Gallup was that managers are
having trouble obtaining
training on how to manage remote
employees.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you and I both know that it
is a skill that you pick up over
time.
It's not something you're
getting gonna jump right into.
You can't do it the same way as
if they're sitting right across
from you.
And the statistics there are
that 7% of companies right now
have required training or
coaching for remote leaders.
Seven.
That's a really, really low
number.
Jim Hirschauer: That's, that's
very low.
Yes.
A lot of opportunity for
improving there.
Scott Lee: For sure, and we can
even go to the other end of that
spectrum that that means that
they are requiring it.
On the other end of the spectrum
is that they don't even have it
available.
That's 57%.
Wow.
Huge shift.
So I think there's a big
opportunity, and I believe this
is where my research is gonna go
as I perform my dissertation
studies and things like that.
Is it's gonna lead to better
training for leaders and
managers to have those
conversations with the team
members, manage them better from
a remote perspective.
And it's all gonna boil down to
communication.
You gotta be able to communicate
with your team.
Jim Hirschauer: Yeah.
Like so many things in life, it
just really comes down to
communicating well, doesn't it?
That's right.
That's right.
All right, cool.
So how about you remind us one
more time uh, name of your
article and where that is going
to be published?
Scott Lee: The article's called
Adapting to the New Normal IT
Leadership Strategies for
Managing a Hybrid Workforce, and
that'll be out on CIO review, I
would think, in the next few
days to a week or so.
Jim Hirschauer: Okay, so
hopefully if you're listening to
this, it's out now.
If it's not out yet.
Keep checking back for it.
So now let's, let's go ahead and
transition back to something a
little bit fun again and
lighthearted for the end of the
show here.
When we were talking before the
show about, potential topics,
you mentioned camper van life
and, you know, living for a
little while, at least in a
camper van, and it's something
that I'm really interested in.
I don't want to go live in a
camper van.
Let me get that straight.
But I do want to travel more
with my pets who are terrible at
flying, and that's probably
gonna take something similar to
a campervan.
So tell me your story about
living in a camper van.
Scott Lee: So when I picked up
this job at Arch, it was right
in the middle of the pandemic.
House sales were going crazy and
so I thought, well, I'll put my
house up for sale, I know I have
to move up to the Winston-Salem
area.
Let's just see how long it's
gonna take.
I'll do it for sale by owner.
Little did I know I'd have
multiple people within a week
offering me what I want, and
then some.
So we sold the house really
fast.
Too fast in fact, because we
weren't able to find a house
that we wanted to buy up in
Winston.
So we decided to buy a lot and
build a house, which is why I
just got my mortgage recently
here.
Yeah.
So to bridge that, I figure it'd
be a little bit easy maybe to
rent.
So we went out and looked, well,
there were no rentals either to,
to speak of that were of any
quality.
So we went ahead and bought a
3235RL Winnebago travel trailer.
So it's 36 feet long.
It's got two opposing slide
outs.
It has about 264 square feet,
which doesn't seem like a lot
and, let me tell you, it's not.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Luckily it's just my wife and I
and our two dogs, so it wasn't
the whole family, but it was an
interesting experience to say
the least.
Jim Hirschauer: So it sounds
like maybe a little bit more
than what I'm thinking of a, as
a camper van.
A little more on the larger side
towards an rv, but still, yeah.
That's small.
And you lived in it for how
long?
Scott Lee: It was end to end,
about 18 months.
Jim Hirschauer: Wow.
That's a really long time.
Yeah.
Scott Lee: Oh yeah, that was, it
was definitely a long time.
Jim Hirschauer: So you said you
didn't have any animals living
with you in the camper van, is
that right?
Or?
Scott Lee: We did.
We had, we had two dogs.
Oh, you had two dogs?
Yep.
So my wife's a seven pound
Pomeranian.
That wasn't a huge problem, but
my two year old 30 pound border
colly full of energy.
Yeah.
Was a huge problem.
So that was a challenge.
Jim Hirschauer: So I'm curious,
you've got these animals in the
RV and you leave.
Do you keep track of'em at all
in the rv?
Scott Lee: Yes, absolutely.
I had to disconnect all my home
automation from the old home
when I sold it.
So it put a little bit of
automation back into the rv.
So we used some remote
thermostat controllers and some
remote temperature gauges and
humidity and that sort of thing
so that we could tell if our
living area was too hot or too
cold for the animals, I could
adjust it remotely.
We also used Solar.
We have 200 watts of solar with
some batteries.
So if the power happened to go
out, which happens more
frequently than you might
imagine at a campground, our
trailer was set up that some
basic life support type of
features would still be
available.
To keep the dogs comfortable.
Jim Hirschauer: That's amazing.
And for internet, how did you
get all this communication
functioning?
Scott Lee: Well, so the first
part, we had decent, I wouldn't
say good, but decent internet
access at the campgrounds that
we were at.
And towards the end of the
experience, we actually did get
onto starlink, which allowed us
to, as long as we had power,
which my inverter would provide
power to the starlink modem.
So we were able to get
connection that way.
Jim Hirschauer: Nice, so I have
a device at home that I think
would be perfect in that setup.
I have a product called Furbo.
And it's a cool little device
that is a, it's not only a
little camera, it's an internet
camera, but it also can pan
around the room and it can track
my dogs.
It's made to follow your dogs
around the room.
And the other thing it does,
which is really cool, is it
flings treats at your dogs if
you want to.
So you just like swipe up on
your phone screen and all of a
sudden you see a treat fling on
the camera.
You see it fling out of the
device and the dog gobbles up
the treat.
And I love this device.
So I think that would be an
amazing addition if you ever end
up in that situation again.
And certainly if I'm in that
situation, that's what I'm gonna
do.
I'm gonna have one of these in
there.
I love all the stuff that you
had working with the
understanding the temperature.
And I'm not trying to plug this
device.
I don't get any, I don't get any
royalties here, but I just think
it's a really cool device.
They also had some intelligence
to figure out, and this is one
of the really nice things about
AI.
That intelligence is starting to
be able to figure out, oh, hey,
your dog is playing.
It's exercising right now, and
it lets you know, or Uhoh, your
dog is actually under distress
of some kind right now.
You might wanna check in and
possibly rush home because your
dog is under distress.
So it's pretty amazing where
we're headed with technology and
how some of these things impact
our lives.
Even with something as.
I don't know.
I don't wanna say simple, but
with a relationship that we have
with our pets.
Scott Lee: Yeah, that's a great
tool.
I, I did see that out there and
if we ever get into our
situation again like that, we'll
definitely be looking into that.
Although my wife would tell you
never gonna happen.
Jim Hirschauer: All right, so
here's, look in every one of
these segments I usually try and
get to, Hey, what, do you have
some tips?
So, what did you learn during
that time?
Scott Lee: I learned that living
in an RV is hard.
Yeah.
And you know, it's good if you
can get to camp grounds that
have full hookups because then
you don't have to worry about at
least those things.
But you know, prepare yourself.
It's not gonna be an easy road,
but you can make the most of it
if you go places that are fun
and you'll meet a lot of nice
people.
So that's what we, that's what
we took from it.
Jim Hirschauer: Nice.
I love the people aspect of it.
After all, it's all about the
people.
Yep.
So listen, Scott, thank you so
much for coming on the show,
this topic for me.
I know it's a little bit of a
departure from the normal tech
talk that we have, but I think
it's incredibly relevant right
now and it's becoming even more
relevant as time goes by.
So it's really been an absolute
pleasure speaking with you.
So thanks again for coming on
the show.
Scott Lee: Well, thank you for
having me.
It's been a pleasure to be here.
Jim Hirschauer: Alright, and to
all of our listeners, if you
wanna share your DevOps stories
as a guest speaker on ShipTalk,
please send us an email to
podcast@shiptalk.io and we'll
get back to you.
That's all for now.
Until next time.