00:00:00:01 - 00:00:06:20
Martin
I actually think it's not even months away. I think realistically we're already there. It's now something we have to deal with. Now.
00:00:06:21 - 00:00:31:21
Asaaf
I'm not going to name names. I remember a meeting with certain government agencies and they came up and said, hey, the Russians are coming. Shields up. We were already here. What do you want us to do? Shields up. More people have already attempted to replace sections of a workforce with artificial intelligence. Can I disagree with you? There is a world in which we take away whole swaths of roles and shift into it.
00:00:31:23 - 00:00:37:17
Asaaf
I raise my hand, and I'm like, I made a security by how the stock is doing.
00:00:37:18 - 00:00:47:23
Martin
Actually, AI isn't a bad thing. It's enabling us to do the job that we supposed to be doing. That Skynet taking over is why I always say thank you to whatever AI assistant I'm using.
00:00:48:00 - 00:00:49:12
Asaaf
Yeah, and please.
00:00:49:18 - 00:00:52:22
Martin
Stop talking. Start shipping.
00:00:53:00 - 00:01:17:07
Speaker 3
Welcome to Ship Talk. Brought to you by Harness the Show about how software delivery is actually changing in the AI era. I'm Adam here with my co-host Martin. And today we've got two headlines. First, the five AIS just warned that AI capable of launching real cyber attacks is months, not years away. And second, is AI breaking the workforce or finally setting it free to help us untangle it?
00:01:17:07 - 00:01:35:18
Speaker 3
I brought in somebody who actually lives this a soft Karen. He is my former boss, a long time good friend, and the author of lessons from the Front Line Insights from a Cybersecurity Career. He's worked for PayPal as the CSO and at Qualtrics as the chief security officer. If anyone can cut through the hype, it's him.
00:01:35:20 - 00:01:37:20
Adam
Martin? Martin, how are you doing?
00:01:37:22 - 00:02:05:07
Martin
It's been a good week. I got to do a couple of exciting things, so I got to I got to speak at platform. Com. I did have a weird realization. So you know we had that engineering X Engineering Excellence dinner last night. And I driven up to Charlotte from from home, which is about 2.5 hours. And I was driving back and after talking about AI all week, I suddenly realized I was using AI as I was driving a log and I was using it without even thinking about it.
00:02:05:08 - 00:02:07:13
Adam
What capacity? Like, what do you mean what? We're using AI.
00:02:07:14 - 00:02:30:20
Martin
So I was using Apple Maps and how maps has uses machine learning and AI and a bunch of clever private on device stuff to like, learn my common routes and my driving habits. And I was doing all that and I absolutely was not thinking about it, which then made me think, we're not there yet. When we talk about AI and things like software delivery and everything else, we're not there.
00:02:30:21 - 00:02:41:14
Martin
We're still it's still very much present and in our face. It's not something that just, you know, we accept, you know, that it's doing all the right things in the background because it's got all the right guardrails.
00:02:41:14 - 00:03:21:02
Adam
So let's talk about our first topic. So this week there was an article that came out based on a press release from The Five Eyes. And for those of you that aren't familiar with Five Eyes, it is five countries who share intelligence, the signal agencies, and everybody except for the US called signal agencies, kind of like their intelligence agencies of Australia, the United States, the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Canada released a press statement saying that or warning that AI models, AI models capable of launching devastating cyber attacks on governments and businesses are months, not years away, and urged leaders to act now.
00:03:21:02 - 00:03:48:12
Adam
So what's interesting about this is that there was a the United States administration, you know, current administration decided to bar foreign nationals from accessing to advanced models, fable and mythos, citing national security advice or, you know, issues. So two part question A is that is that accurate and be what about the timing here. Like do you are we months not years away or are we already months not years past that point of them being comparable?
00:03:48:14 - 00:04:07:12
Martin
Wow. That is there's a lot in those two questions. So first of all, I actually think we're we're it's not even months away. I think we're realistically we're already there. It's now something we have to deal with. Now we have to stop saying, hey, we know this technical debt, though. We know we're using gold systems that are vulnerable.
00:04:07:12 - 00:04:21:09
Martin
We know we're doing this, but we'll do that later. That's not a that's not a response anymore because we've gone from, you know, it's less about the fact that it can find them. It's the fact that it can find them so quickly. Right. Is the issue.
00:04:21:11 - 00:04:31:00
Adam
So so this this is a segment where we could go on and on for a long time. And it's not just that the segment itself lends itself to that, but this topic itself lends itself to that.
00:04:31:01 - 00:04:45:21
Martin
Okay. Well next we've got a like a segment that we're going to do every week, which is harness by the numbers. And Ben, I want a little trumpeting, you know. Did you do do do do harness by the numbers to come in right here.
00:04:45:21 - 00:04:49:17
Adam
But it's just going to be a clip of you making that noise. Just so you know.
00:04:49:19 - 00:04:53:03
Martin
It's fine, but I want trumpets.
00:04:53:05 - 00:04:53:16
Adam
Okay.
00:04:53:17 - 00:05:01:18
Speaker 5
All right.
00:05:01:20 - 00:05:04:17
Martin
Harness by the numbers. Okay.
00:05:04:21 - 00:05:05:23
Adam
Very demanding, but carry on.
00:05:05:23 - 00:05:25:06
Martin
I am very demanding. What we're going with today is that even though I use this is up, more than 50% of employees are considering leaving their job. So I'm hoping. In fact, I'm pretty positive that that's going to be part of the discussion that we're going to have with our guest, who you are going to introduce for us.
00:05:25:06 - 00:05:39:19
Adam
So today we have invited a soft Karen, who is my former boss, a good friend of mine and the author of lessons from the Front Line Insights from a Cybersecurity Career, but a soft. We're so glad that you've joined us, and we're so glad that you're here.
00:05:39:19 - 00:05:41:05
Asaaf
Thank you. Excited to be here.
00:05:41:11 - 00:05:45:11
Adam
Yeah. Why exactly are you excited to be here? I think you had a lot of reticence.
00:05:45:11 - 00:05:48:05
Asaaf
Because of you. Had because of you either.
00:05:48:07 - 00:06:11:07
Adam
Well, cool. And so glad that you're here. Great book. If those of you who even if you're not in security, I. I recommend picking it up. It isn't often that cybersecurity thought leadership doesn't just revolve around what you should buy, or what kind of technical stuff you should do. This is a this is a book that has lessons around actually becoming a leader, as opposed to a manager or a technical expert.
00:06:11:07 - 00:06:14:01
Adam
So I for me, it was great. I really enjoyed it.
00:06:14:03 - 00:06:16:16
Asaaf
Can I this on the first segment as well or know.
00:06:16:17 - 00:06:20:07
Adam
What do you have to say about five. Come on, what do you think about this five Eyes report.
00:06:20:09 - 00:06:23:18
Asaaf
How long is the Ukraine war have been going on?
00:06:23:20 - 00:06:25:13
Martin
Three, four, four years.
00:06:25:14 - 00:06:50:00
Asaaf
I remember. I'm not going to name names. I remember a meeting with, with certain government agencies right after the war started, and they met with financial organizations and they came up and said, hey, the Russians are coming. And I said, okay, and the shields up and we're.
00:06:50:02 - 00:07:00:10
Asaaf
Okay, and no shields up. Really? The Russians are coming. Yeah, but we, we we don't have another like, we're, we're we're.
00:07:00:10 - 00:07:01:17
Adam
Kind of doing everything.
00:07:01:19 - 00:07:22:19
Asaaf
At the time like we're here like we don't have here. Like we were already here. What do you want us to do? Like shields up more? Do you have any substantial intelligence to give us two losses? Methods of operations. Something to give us to be able to do this thing that you're asking? No.
00:07:22:21 - 00:07:24:05
Adam
Oh that's helpful.
00:07:24:07 - 00:07:27:11
Asaaf
Yeah, very. The five wise document. The same thing.
00:07:27:12 - 00:07:28:00
Adam
Yeah.
00:07:28:00 - 00:07:32:04
Asaaf
Yeah, yeah. This is secure by this. By that. Yeah.
00:07:32:06 - 00:07:34:03
Adam
Thank you. Yeah.
00:07:34:05 - 00:07:35:04
Asaaf
You got it. Yeah.
00:07:35:04 - 00:07:37:08
Adam
We got my next tattoo for my boy.
00:07:37:12 - 00:08:02:10
Asaaf
It's. It's not that we've not been trying to do this for the last five years. And by the way, I really appreciate Cecil secure by design push. I think that they've been doing it the right way in the sense of resources and training and education, etc.. The Five Eyes document is drive is burning. Go do this thing that that the industry has been struggling with doing for years and years and years and haven't been successful.
00:08:02:12 - 00:08:26:10
Asaaf
Now the value in the Five Eyes document is now CISOs can bring it to the to their leadership and the board and say, hey, you know, if the five eyes are saying this, then maybe we should do something which is a good outcome and that that might be where the value sits. But the document, when I read it, I was connecting to my teenager and I was starting rolling my eyes.
00:08:26:13 - 00:08:36:09
Adam
There's a literal paragraph in there that says, this time you should do secure by design, but for real. This time it's like, okay, like.
00:08:36:11 - 00:08:39:01
Asaaf
I think, hey guys, guys, for reals?
00:08:39:06 - 00:08:40:10
Adam
For realsies.
00:08:40:11 - 00:08:44:00
Asaaf
Yeah. For reals. Yeah. For reals. Let's do security design.
00:08:44:02 - 00:08:44:16
Adam
But for real?
00:08:44:16 - 00:08:46:15
Asaaf
For real. It's not wrong.
00:08:46:15 - 00:09:13:17
Adam
But no, but it's also not helpful. So we want to kind of take this leadership tack into another article that we read this week. There's a survey conducted by Issa of 380 IT and security professionals said that nearly 7 in 10 say their jobs have grown harder over the past two years, despite widespread AI animation. For me, that is a very interesting use of the word despite instead of because of.
00:09:13:19 - 00:09:33:23
Adam
Their jobs have grown harder over the past two years, despite or because of widespread AI automation. More than 80% of organizations now use or plan to use AI for tasks like penetration testing, risk prediction, threat detection. And may I add the sock? And so and then the last point of this is that the human workforce remains stretched thin.
00:09:34:03 - 00:09:56:06
Adam
Half of respondents are debating leaving their jobs, as Martin stated, and more than half are considering quitting quitting the industry altogether, 53% citing high stress, 33% weak leadership commitment to security. First question and this is to either of you is off to you. First, you know how how true does this ring to you? Like especially the the half of people are consider considering leaving their jobs.
00:09:56:07 - 00:10:01:16
Adam
And is this like because it's Tuesday or because something happened? Like what do you think?
00:10:01:18 - 00:10:43:18
Asaaf
I think half and again they do the survey. I didn't, but I think half is a bit harsh. And there is it's like a triple whammy in the sense of attackers are using AI much faster than defenders. So the rate of attacks is going up. And then we have a new supply chain attack or a new thing coming up every, every other day and breaches into the third parties and, and faster, more automated attacks coming at us and expectations that are changing from if you're in B2B, expectations that are changing from vendors, if you're in B2C, expectations are changing from regulators and from customers.
00:10:43:20 - 00:11:13:06
Asaaf
So more pressure on security teams from that perspective to pressure to go in and utilize AI tooling from leadership, because everybody is like, there's this whole AI mandate right now, which is great. But a lot of the tooling that we're using is there, say, AI for AI sake and not AI for an outcome sake. And and that is not helping because you're stuck with bad products or you stuck with maybe good products, bad outcomes.
00:11:13:08 - 00:11:13:19
Adam
Right.
00:11:13:20 - 00:11:35:10
Asaaf
And the third everybody's hearing or everybody's fearing that AI will come and take their job away. So they're they're in this emotional state of, we were going to get fired anyhow because AI will come and do my job. I'm a sock analyst. I do triage on a day by day basis. Hey, my boss is now testing out this AI triage thing.
00:11:35:11 - 00:11:49:06
Asaaf
Am I going to have a job? And I think all of that creates a psychological element of, do I want to stay in this profession? I don't think it's this similar to, by the way, software engineering or other areas, but I think that it's more acute in security.
00:11:49:07 - 00:12:01:14
Adam
Right. And Martin, do you think that this is something that that is unique to the AI, the advent of of a genetic and generative AI, or have we seen something like this before?
00:12:01:16 - 00:12:22:01
Martin
No, I mean, I think we've seen it before. I think we've seen it multiple times. You know, I think we saw it very much, you know, with the kind of whole cloud adoption and the moving from data centers and now moving back to data centers and everything that happened in between. With that, I also think that it's just happening so much faster.
00:12:22:02 - 00:12:51:16
Martin
Right. And, you know, I've always felt that if you work in anywhere in software, it's constant change. But that rate of change is just accelerating so much. And I think some of the things that Safra was talking about is actually people catching up with the change in their own brain, if that makes sense. Like, you know, the example of the sock, you know, the sock triage, think, well, does that really mean that you don't need the person?
00:12:51:16 - 00:13:00:22
Martin
Or is it actually that the way the person does their job needs to change and they just those two things haven't quite aligned yet, if that makes sense.
00:13:01:00 - 00:13:21:22
Adam
And I have I personally, I don't see a way in which those things are going to align until they fall down. People have already attempted to replace sections of a workforce or entire roles with artificial intelligence and not really outcome based. Not anything besides, like the CEO or board learned the word antic and decided that that was the thing they're going to do.
00:13:21:22 - 00:13:32:00
Adam
And then, you know, they make, you know, they heavy handedly force it on, you know, whatever line of business. And until it collapses, people don't really learn the lesson.
00:13:32:00 - 00:13:34:07
Asaaf
So can I, can I disagree with you?
00:13:34:08 - 00:13:36:14
Adam
Yes, please. Yeah. Let's hear it.
00:13:36:16 - 00:14:03:04
Asaaf
I think you're being the best. What's that? I think you're being too busy, mystic. Okay, In my mind, there is a world in which we take away whole swaths of roles and shift them to AI in the next two years and actually think it will be better because most of the work in security is or in software engineering as well.
00:14:03:04 - 00:14:27:05
Asaaf
But in security, most of the work is toil that can be avoided. Do I think that it means that we will not have SOC analysts in five years? No. We will have SOC analysts in five years, but they will do what they were supposed to do from the start, which is to bring human intuition, analytics and connecting the dots for and managing large incidents, not doing tickets.
00:14:27:07 - 00:14:41:08
Asaaf
And and so yes, the there are really bad implementations right now. But I think the future is actually really bright. I don't think it collapses. It will collapse in places, but I don't think it collapses across the board.
00:14:41:09 - 00:14:43:21
Adam
No, I think that's fair. I agree with that completely.
00:14:44:00 - 00:15:19:00
Martin
I will say just picking up on the optimistic tone there. You know, one of the people we were talking to last night at the dinner was actually saying, they're doing all sorts of things with AI right now, you know, across their whole life cycle. But they're also investing in like, I think he was saying like 100 and or a couple of hundred people circa that they need to add to their team because, because I guess accelerating everything, because they have more to get done, because they need those people there.
00:15:19:00 - 00:15:41:08
Martin
So I thought it was interesting because, you know, on the one hand, as a leader, he's saying, you know, we're working to to, you know, embed AI into our security, into our software development, into our delivery. And, you know, and I'm a big part of that. At the same time, I need more people to actually make this really effective and to get the real gains out.
00:15:41:08 - 00:16:15:11
Asaaf
Of it. I'll do where I'm more pessimistic than optimistic. In that sense, what we're doing is we're up leveling everybody. Is that okay? I will do triage. I will do questionnaires. I will do in the end of this conversion for GRC. AI will do third party risk assessments and the people will will do the higher function level. Like if you look at the thought people will do threat hunting, Dota threat and still do dissections in response augmented by AI, but they'll do more interesting.
00:16:15:12 - 00:16:47:18
Asaaf
But high level is in response. Do things that are more interesting. They'll be better. So we're basically up leveling the workforce. But what we're creating is we're just demolishing the the substrate where we trained people. So we've trained people to understand the company by collecting evidence for GRC so that when they go up and now do risk assessments, they understand the company and they ascend the risk appetite in a way where they can actually do that, we train people to do is in response, doing triage.
00:16:47:18 - 00:17:07:20
Asaaf
And and we as an industry have not yet found a way to say this is how we're going to bring people that finish a degree left the military. The self-training are interesting. How do we bring them into the workforce so that we actually have a fund of more senior people in the future?
00:17:07:22 - 00:17:33:08
Adam
But it could it be, though, that that those tasks and that that training is going to be abstracted away because like right now, you know, you're you're you're the need for any random developer to understand, you know, file transfer protocols or the way that actual routing works or what a VPN even actually does in real life has been extracted so far away from people who are actually developing technology that they actually don't need to understand it.
00:17:33:08 - 00:17:49:16
Adam
And so, like, yes, me growing up, you know, as a marine, learning about data centers and physical connections and stuff like that, it's part of my history. But do I think that there will be a generation or a group of people that don't have that history who will be more advanced in this because they didn't ever have to worry about it?
00:17:49:17 - 00:17:51:04
Adam
Like, I kind of think that's the truth.
00:17:51:04 - 00:17:53:07
Asaaf
But do you think they'll be better?
00:17:53:09 - 00:17:56:07
Adam
Yeah, well, I'm not very smart, so I just imagine that's the truth.
00:17:56:10 - 00:18:02:19
Speaker 6
Yeah. Well, personally. Yes, Adam. But but generally when you think about the industry.
00:18:02:21 - 00:18:13:09
Asaaf
And I'm not saying, I'm saying we need to find a way to train the next generation so that they have a job and then they can replace us.
00:18:13:12 - 00:18:14:04
Adam
Yeah.
00:18:14:05 - 00:18:18:17
Asaaf
And I'm thinking we go back to blacksmithing. We start apprenticeship programs.
00:18:18:18 - 00:18:41:06
Adam
Like a four year degree in blacksmithing isn't going to help you make a straight nail, but like going and actually doing it next to somebody is there's there's one piece on this that, that I think I want to touch on is kind of the last piece of talking about this article and this study. One of the things that was cited by people who were thinking of leaving the security industry was 30, 33%.
00:18:41:08 - 00:18:57:02
Adam
I assume that it's 33.33 repeating. Of course, we're citing weak leadership commitment to security. What do you think about that? Soft like which leaders like what are they actually expecting? Like where's the disconnect?
00:18:57:04 - 00:19:09:09
Asaaf
We need to change the way we think about as an industry. We need to change the way think about and communicate about security. And when people talk about weak leadership, commitment to security.
00:19:09:10 - 00:19:11:17
Adam
Like what are some examples of that?
00:19:11:19 - 00:19:33:00
Asaaf
I think they usually talk about their. CEOs or the CTO of like, oh, they don't care about security. And this is where this is the the size of failure mode, I will call it this is the. And Adam knows this because he read the book. So this is in the book that I said, I said in a sister roundtable three years ago, I don't remember exactly the time.
00:19:33:00 - 00:19:48:00
Asaaf
And it was somewhere in Europe. And and everybody was like, how do you measure security in your company? And one guy was a really, really, by the way, really honest, I appreciate it said I measure security by how much money and power I get.
00:19:48:01 - 00:19:49:15
Adam
Wow.
00:19:49:17 - 00:19:51:21
Speaker 7
I'm like, okay.
00:19:51:23 - 00:19:58:15
Asaaf
All right. And another is like, yeah, we are using this framework. And another was we're using that framework. And then.
00:19:58:16 - 00:20:02:06
Adam
My budget has eight figures hashtag going wow.
00:20:02:12 - 00:20:30:01
Asaaf
And then the this person comes in she says I made her security by I can't measure security because my CEO doesn't like security because my CEO doesn't like security. I can't be measured and I raise my hand. I was the most hated person in the room there because they were all Europeans, and I came from the States. And and I raised my hand and I'm like, I measured security by how the stock is doing.
00:20:30:03 - 00:20:30:17
Adam
Nice.
00:20:30:17 - 00:20:48:17
Asaaf
And then look at me and says how like, security has nothing to do with the stock. Well, security is having to do with the stock because you are a business function in the business. And in the end you will be measured by if the business is successful or not. And if you can't tie the work that you're doing to the success of the business, then you have a problem.
00:20:48:17 - 00:21:12:07
Asaaf
And I'm going to take a bet that the 33% to say that there is weak security leadership, that is where their their security leaders have failed in translation from why security is important to the business. And explain that to the CEO and the CTO and the CFO, etc., but also explain the connectivity between the security and the business to their employees.
00:21:12:09 - 00:21:26:12
Asaaf
And a lot of time you need to stay in the business as well. So a lot of times you will make decisions. There will not be the most and best decisions for for security, but I can have the most secure organization in the world, just won't make any money.
00:21:26:15 - 00:21:30:07
Adam
Right? And then you win because you have power.
00:21:30:09 - 00:21:33:07
Asaaf
No. Then you win because you're the most secure.
00:21:33:09 - 00:21:35:11
Adam
The because everything's turned off. Yeah.
00:21:35:12 - 00:21:56:04
Asaaf
This is the transition of the CSO. And this is a transition that has been happening in the last 15 years where we we all started as the technical person that's driving the security element within the technical teams. And we're slowly but but I think I've seen across the industry shifting into where our business leader with a sit in the board.
00:21:56:07 - 00:22:05:04
Asaaf
Yeah. And with influence across the organization with time back on, when I think about what makes companies successful, what's the most.
00:22:05:05 - 00:22:06:11
Adam
Good marketing?
00:22:06:13 - 00:22:28:00
Asaaf
I would argue that that's part of it, but I say the most, and especially that there is like this reshaping of trust in the internet right now in the post AI world. But trust is a huge and consumers are very easy to trust and very easy to distrust. And if they trust you, they'll do everything with you. And when you think about trust, security is one pillar of trust.
00:22:28:01 - 00:22:35:01
Asaaf
It's not all of it, but it's one pillar of trust. So it's directly connected to the the business sets.
00:22:35:04 - 00:22:50:12
Adam
Yeah, I like that. Shout out to the the Women in Cybersecurity group. I was at a meeting last week and I've been running around, I don't know, for the last two months or whatever it's been since mythos came out running around screaming from the top of my lungs, this is not a security problem. This is an engineering problem.
00:22:50:12 - 00:23:10:11
Adam
And I got a well, actually from one of the participants there. And she said. Actually, it's not a technical problem. This is a business problem. And I thought that was like, okay, now I've been corrected. That's the best thing that that I think that we could go, you know, say going forward. Well.
00:23:10:17 - 00:23:12:07
Asaaf
Yeah, Martine wants to move us away.
00:23:12:07 - 00:23:12:21
Adam
To the other thing.
00:23:13:02 - 00:23:18:09
Martin
No, I don't I actually, I, I could jump in on this some more, but we will move.
00:23:18:09 - 00:23:20:10
Speaker 7
Away for it. We got.
00:23:20:12 - 00:23:42:01
Martin
You know, every guest guest this question and hopefully this can be more upbeat in terms of, in terms of outlook. But you know, what's the the one thing that you see teams that they they're getting wrong about AI software delivery right now and and and what's the right what's the optimistic view of that.
00:23:42:03 - 00:23:47:10
Asaaf
The one thing I see teams getting wrong is hiring Adam Mariano okay.
00:23:47:11 - 00:24:00:16
Speaker 7
All right. Yeah. Who and who's guilty of said thing. They're of everybody. Yeah. Everybody in this room, you're the only one to fuck that one up.
00:24:00:18 - 00:24:06:00
Speaker 6
I am kidding, Ben. That was just for laughter. And please don't put that on the podcast.
00:24:06:00 - 00:24:07:20
Speaker 7
Too late. The one.
00:24:07:20 - 00:24:19:01
Asaaf
Thing, the one thing I see people teams doing wrong is, is taking the maximalist approach to software development. But the real focus should be around minimization.
00:24:19:02 - 00:24:37:01
Adam
Awesome. Thank you again for spending time with us. We really appreciate your time, your insights and everything you've done. Have a great one. Thank you. Great to have us often. I've known that man for quite a few years and if nothing else, giving each other a hard time is my favorite thing to do with him. So I'm glad he was here and able to able to participate.
00:24:37:01 - 00:24:40:19
Adam
So from that conversation. This is the first time you've met the soft, correct? Martin.
00:24:40:20 - 00:24:42:17
Martin
It's the first time I messed up. Yeah, it.
00:24:42:17 - 00:24:48:23
Adam
Was fun. It was great. Yeah. Really fun. What takeaways do you have? Like, what would you come away with from us off.
00:24:49:00 - 00:25:17:00
Martin
I mean, that's there was a couple of big things for me. I certainly I did enjoy his like his big thoughtfulness pieces around. Hey this is the way the workforce works. Now, actually, AI isn't a bad thing. It's enabling us to do the job that we must be supposed to be doing right. And that kind of hopeless, and at the same time having the concern of like, how do we actually get people there?
00:25:17:00 - 00:25:41:05
Martin
How do we how does the next generation get to that same level, or maybe even the level above? Right. So we're we're leveling up and that's great. And we get to do the things that we always wanted to do. At the same time, you know, let's plan for how we bring in the next generation. And I really enjoyed that that kind of play of of kind of optimism and concern at the same time.
00:25:41:07 - 00:26:01:00
Adam
Yeah. And what's funny is that in similar to you like my takeaway from this is like I actually violently agree with the soft on most things is just that when he talks about them very smartly, he says the positive, optimistic things first and then brings up the things that you then need to make sure that we remember to do, like over time.
00:26:01:01 - 00:26:27:17
Adam
And so I think that's one of my takeaways, is don't forget to be an optimist first and then lay out the work that's ahead of us afterwards. I think that's a great he actually talks about that not just in his book but in his blog a couple different times that, you know, you start with, here's the reality, but here's why we're optimistic and here's the work that's ahead of us, is a great way to couch that, to make sure that everybody knows that, you know, until Skynet takes over, which I welcome our new robot overlords.
00:26:27:17 - 00:26:30:23
Adam
And till that happens, we actually will be fine.
00:26:31:02 - 00:26:53:18
Martin
Yeah. And by the way, that Skynet taking over is why I always say thank you to whatever AI assistant I'm using. I, you know, so remembers me. I don't want to be. I don't want to be first up against the wall. So that's shit talk brought to you by harness. And if you know Adam's point of view, particularly got under your skin, then absolutely.
00:26:53:18 - 00:27:00:04
Martin
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